More Evidence That You Should Think Twice About Authentication
November 6th, 2007I’ve always been critical of authenticators (see The Problem with Autograph Authentication and other authentication posts), but I think others are starting to wise up to authentication services and not take their opinions as blind truth anymore. I’ve long been planning a large scale experiment to show just how in-exact their science is - email me at ajm@sportslizard.com if you’re interested in participating - but in the meantime I’ll settle for publishing and bringing to light any questionable authentication story I can find.
If you have 10 minutes and you care about the hobby, you HAVE to read this recent StarMarks.net newsletter. As the president and owner of StarMarks Memorabilia - a company that sells autographed music memorabilia - Larry Lancit wrote a compelling argument for boycotting PSA/DNA, JSA, et all, including SPECIFIC EXAMPLES with the reports from the authenticators scanned in, and a proposed solution.
Here’s a quick excerpt of my favorite part:
First of all, it is important to note that both PSA/DNA and JSA are sellers of memorabilia in addition to being authenticators. As far as I am concerned no amount of argument to the contrary can hide the fact that there is a clear conflict of interest inherent in these activities. Anyone who is connected in any way to the selling of memorabilia cannot offer totally unbiased judgments on the veracity of a piece.
Secondly, while all the experts from these companies have years of experience, they have no formal training in handwriting analysis. They may have taken a two week course to be ‘certified’, but they have no real formal training and substantive resume that qualifies them to render opinions on forgeries. Otherwise they would be in great demand by the legal system. The Justice system in this country much prefers a recognized forensic expert over a hobbyist in questions of fraud and forgery.
Thirdly, anyone who claims to be able to offer an opinion on the authenticity of an item must look at the item in person, not from a picture or a scan (as EBAY,PSA/DNA and JSA and R&R Auctions do). In order to tell whether or not something is real, one has to have it physically in front of them for examination. Furthermore, in order to make a judgment as to pressure differences, overlapped strokes, etc, the examiner must be able to look at the signature directly with no glass or framing over it to render an expert opinion.
Also, in looking at all the rejection letters from both PSA/DNA and JSA, they all are form letters and repeat the same phrases over and over again.
The previous points are the basic starting marks for any authenticator’s qualifications to be able to render opinions. Then, the collector must look at the educational and training credentials of the chosen expert and decide that, in fact, they are qualified to render the opinion about an item.
There are many in the hobby who do not respect the opinions of forensic experts. They claim that they are only expert in the analysis of ink and paper, and are not qualified to render opinions or judgments on signatures. They claim that we should return to the ‘old way of doing things’ which I interpret to mean accepting opinions from established auction houses or experienced hobbyists. There is some wisdom to that point of view, but given the advanced state of the art in forgery and the inherent conflict of interest from those who opine and sell memorabilia, I am skeptical of this point of view
As far as I am concerned, –and I am only one voice in the wilderness of autographed memorabilia dealers and collectors–, the most trusted way to get any kind of reliable opinion is to use a trained forensic handwriting expert to look at our signatures. All the self proclaimed experts who are dealers, and who tout themselves as experienced hobbyists and therefore qualified to make such opinions are, -in the best of cases- misguided and naive,- and in the worst of cases-, fleecing us! Just look at the fees they charge. And even if you pay the huge fees associated with their examinations, how certain are you of the veracity of their opinions?
I am open to the wisdom of experienced and reliable auction houses and certain individuals making judgments about pieces, but they will have to be organizations and individuals who are universally approved by the major autograph societies and a consortium of dealers and respected hobbyists. In the present state of the autograph universe, I don’t see that happening until we can all agree on some universal criteria for examination and qualification.
Here’s the real rub-as long as major auction houses and liquidators of an individual’s collections demand approval from the PSA/DNAs and JSAs of the world, the results of their efforts are fraught with potential conflicts of interest and just downright shoddy and inaccurate opinions.
So what is the solution?
I propose that all of us collectors and dealers stand up and raise our voices to these auction houses and liquidators. Tell them and tell our colleagues that the only way to proceed with true authentication is to use trained forensic handwriting experts to tell us if our collections are real or not. That means that we have to form a coalition of dealers that provides our clients with an approved list of forensic experts that will look at our items with the most exacting standards. We should come together and create a resource pool of these experts that do not sell anything; that only examine. Only then can we be sure that there is no conflict of interest.
That coalition of dealers should also arrive at a consensus about other sources of authentication that they are willing to accept. That will be difficult, because those sources, of necessity, will not be able to sell items that are related to the ones they are judging. But a start should be made in that direction.
There will be great resistance to this idea, because it will be a real threat to the established way things are done now. But frankly, without an unbiased, educated, trained cadre of people who are looking at our collections, we cannot be assured that our investments and treasures are being treated with the respect and analysis that they deserve.
Why not create a Board of Advisors that draws on people from the world of legitimate dealers and forensic experts? We should then create a list of approved experts, both forensic and others that our colleagues and customers can go to for reasonable rates and unbiased opinions. Only then will we be able to bring true integrity to this hobby.
As usual, long story short: get your own autographs if you want to be 100% certain of authenticity. Proceed with caution otherwise. Maybe some day, with Larry’s guidance, that’ll change.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:02 am
The excerpt you used could not be from a more moronic viewpoint. Blatant mis-statements based on lack of authentic facts.
First Jimmy Spence used to sell items but hasn’t for years since starting his own company. PSA does not either, although individuals working at PSA do, and I concur they should have a company rule against such things.
Third forensic experts have one job; basically to look at two items to tell if they were signed by “the same hand” not to determine which hand was true.
Victoria Mertes, a Beverly Hills forensic expert was not busted by the FBI in the Marino case because as we were told “she was duped.” They placed two Mickey Mantle bats in front of her. They said exhibit A was signed by Mickey Mantle, is Exhibit B also signed by the same hand. Her conclusion was “Yes” and she issued a COA.
They failed to tell her the “MIckey Mantle” who signed Exhibit A was actually named “Greg Marino.”
No forensic experts have no place in the hobby. Neitehr do a bunch of “experts” who authenticate in our business. PSA and JSA do great job and no amount of Hobby Advisors can come to some sort of agreement on setting things right.
There has to be a voice of certainty and this is as good as it gets. Both say they make mistakes and they do but so would your advisors and even more mistakes. We have a good system right now — it works. It’s not broken. Leave it alone.
The fact there is no training is because government refuses to get involved and why should they? The hobby is a snakepit and always will be. I’d love to see government get involved, requiring training, etc and licensing, but it’s not going to happen. No amount of private advisors could fill that gap.
Thank you
Bob Brill
www.thebrillreport.com
Publisher
November 7th, 2007 at 10:42 am
“We have a good system right now — it works. It’s not broken. Leave it alone.
The fact there is no training is because government refuses to get involved and why should they? The hobby is a snakepit and always will be. ”
That’s like the argument that the gov’t shouldn’t get involved in steroids. If something is illegal, unethical, and hurting an industry, the government can (and should, in my opinion) get involved.
Again - I’ve never said that authenticators are wholeheartedly wrong - their opinion IS valuable…but not to the extent where they’re pulling eBay auctions because of a picture…or to the extent where other evidence of a signatures validity is weathered useless.
Forensic experts most certainly do have a place in the hobby. How to PSA or JSA know an auto is authentic? Probably by comparing it to legit ones! Is there any other way? The example you gave only proves your point because Victoria Mertes was given a fake piece and told it was real. If someone from JSA had nothing else to go on but that one fake Mantle piece, they’d (hopefully) come to the same conclusion.
Let’s take the example of a brand new athlete. We have 1 piece of evidence that we KNOW he signed (let’s just say that everyone involved witnessed the signature). Put someone from PSA in a room with a forensic expert, give them both a signature in question and the new signature. Who’s opinion do you trust more? Give a forensic expert access to the same historical library of signatures that authentication companies have and their opinion is worth far more in court. On equal grounds, how is their opinion NOT more valuable?
Furthermore, if you read the entire piece and look at the reports on his site, I find it hard to believe that you consider his opinion “moronic”. It’s an opinion - just like mine and yours - and he formulated it with logic and backed it up well. Just because you disagree, doesn’t make it “moronic”, just like your opinion is not “moronic”.
November 7th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Also - just for clarification: the reason I expose stories like this is to try to equal the playing field. I think if everyone sees the stories of collectors/dealers who are hurt by the wrong opinions of authenticators, they’ll start to treat it more like an opinion and less of a matter-of-fact. The best scenario I see is not an overthrow of authenticators, but a change in the mind of collectors and dealers in how they view the opinions of authenticators.
March 26th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Ebay has knowlingly been allowing autographs to be sold on their website for years. They have been allowing PSA/DNA to run their “quickopinion” on these autographs, with each person paying $7.50 to get PSA’s “likely” opinion. I am guessing that each autograph of, lets say Mickey Mantle, that gets put on this auction house. Lets also assume 20 people question this autograph. Thats $150.00 to PSA for I’m guessing 15 seconds of the guesser’s time. They also state bluntly this does not guarantee authenticity if sent in to them.
Getting back to ebay, they knowingly will let autographs stay on ebay even if they are fake. I, for one, own a few of these fake ones and now am very disappointed in them for letting this go on. I am also to blame, for not becoming more well educated in autographs before I purchased them.
Ebay, who condone the usage of PSA “quickopinion, will not stand behind these opinions, if it means removing the ad from its websites. Sellers, some of who knowingly and many unware, proceed to sell on here with these forgeries.
Another thing I would like to ad. How come there havent been more webpages designed by someone to help people recognize names or companies that have been known to deal with fake signatures. I am sure many people are aware that companies like Home Shopping Network, Scoreboard, Inc., and My Favorite Players, Inc. were all supplied signatures by a man named Tony Podsada. He has admitted to supplying thousands of fake autographs to these companies and making millions off of it.
IF any disputes to these claims of mine, please leave a message here. Thank you.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
My name is Tony Podsada, I never sold a forgery to anyone! This article is completely false!
I have been in the memorabilia buisness for over 30 years. People love to talk about things they don’t know anything about. If it wasn’t for me Scoreboard would have destroyed every individual autogragh dealer, who was independent of their dealer network. This article states that I admitted to supplying thousands of forgeries to variouse companies. This is a complete lie. Thanks, Tony Podsada
June 27th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
TO NICK JOHNSON: I am not disputing your information about Tony Podsada. As a matter of fact, I would like more information about him as I have heard that he is still around and, possibly, still up to no good. Thank you!
July 14th, 2008 at 12:17 am
hi there. i have proof that PSA/DNA is a joke. a friend of mine signed a card, not going to mention the persons name or the players autograph thats been forged,and had it sent to PSA/DNA for authentication just to test it. it came back as authentic. LOL. the card is a fake. PSA/DNA is a scam. do not send your cards in for authentication. they are stealing peoples money. plain and simple. its completely sad. i hope i get this message out to people.be smart.
February 3rd, 2009 at 5:09 pm
What, if any, information does anyone have about STAT authentic?
March 20th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
I have never seen a Tony Podsada Mantle autograph that has been real. He is a joke. He has cost me a lot of money. He should be in jail. Also if you google his name it collaberates with a guy who is on trial for tax evasion.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:51 am
In answer to Joseph McAllin go to www.statauthentic.com
October 24th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
I can see why starmarks.net would want to boycott the authenticators. Have you seen the stuff they sell? I am not going to say anthing that might get me in trouble but I would NEVER shop there for an autograph.
May 18th, 2010 at 11:04 am
I worked for Tony Podsada for years and I was pretty much his right hand man. Tony never supplied forgeries to anyone I was there for quite a few signings and have pictures of us with the players to back it up. I am so sick and tired of the Individual dealers getting made to be the scapegoats of the larger compnaies who run around do the shady deals and then try to blame it on the little guy. So next time Nick johnson before you go around shooting your mouth off liek you have actual facts you might want to make sure your facts are accurate. I was there i can back up my facts.