Authenticators Scamming eBay Sellers
September 24th, 2007We all understand that eBay has to closely monitor it’s auctions, but lately it’s been getting out of hand. They recently pulled the infamous George Washington DNA Relic card for being in the “wrong category”, and have been on a crusade to rid auctions of any fake autographs. One problem - how can you tell that an autograph is fake by looking at an eBay listing? I barely trust the “experts” to tell me if it’s fake after examining it in person. Apparently if it hasn’t been authenticated by an “expert” that eBay is in bed with, they pull auctions at will. I’ve heard stories from quite a few collectors, but one last week really got under my skin.
Here’s a portion of our email exchange:
I have a question about authentication of autographed items. My question is what qualifies any one to be an authenticator of autographed items? Is there a college degree, an apprenticeship, or do you have to be part of an exclusive club? I’m not asking this question out of hostility toward authenticators or sports memorabilia people. I have just asked this to several different people and have yet to receive a reply. I thought I would just ask you guys for your take.
This question started with me when a posted a Michael Jordan Autographed Card on eBay for auction. I posted the card stating where and when it was signed, provided photos of Mr. Jordan signing the card, and stated this was and authentic autograph. eBay discontinued my listing saying the card was ruled a forgery by their authenticators viewing different listings and I could have the card authenticated professionally for a fee. To say the least I now feel eBay is a scam for simple reason that after discontinuing my auction they will not refund my insertion fees and gave me a bad note in my rating for listing a forged item. What makes their authenticator qualified to tell people and myself I have a forged item, when myself, my best friend, and my father stood and watched Michael Jordan sign the card?. We took photos of him while he signed it, and shook his hand and thanked him graciously for signing the card and taking the time to talk to us. I was only selling the card because I needed the money for medical bills for my daughter. And wonderful ebay dictates what I know the experiences in my life are. I just read your venting about the giants vs. the little guy in authentication and thought you may shed some light. I appreciate any information you may have on this matter. Thank you.
My response:
Wow, that story is horrible. That’s as bad as I’ve ever heard. To answer your question – nothing qualifies them to be authenticators. The companies were all founded by collectors, not hand writing experts that worked for the FBI. Take a look for yourself at their backgrounds http://www.psadna.com/experts.chtml and http://www.spenceloa.com/meetexperts.html for example (aside from James Spence himself, who has “successfully completed certification in Forensic Document Examination” whatever that means).
The reality of it is that NO ONE can absolutely 100% say a signature is real unless they witnessed it and have never lost sight of the item. Everyone signs differently at different times. I live in Albany, NY where the NY Giants have training camp and have gone over for autographs a handful of times. A few years back I watched Kurt Warner sign about 1,000 autographs one day and he signed every single one differently. The guy was sweaty after practice and was swarmed by a million people…half of the autos he signed while leaning over five people while fifty more yelled “Kurt sign mine next”. I guarantee if I sent in my Warner autos they’d come up fake, but that’s absurd.
For collectors, I always tell them to get their own autos in person or through the mail directly to the athlete (where you are pretty sure it’s real) so that they can be their own authenticator. The problems arise when one goes to sell an item like you did. Unfortunately you’ve been screwed over by the culture in the industry that’s taught collectors only to buy an authenticated auto, so if you want to get top dollar you’ll have to succumb and get an “expert” to tell you that your auto is real.
The guy WAS TRYING TO PAY MEDICAL BILLS FOR HIS DAUGHTER. Hope you’re happy eBay. Oh, and kudos for advising him to get the card professionally authenticated for a fee. Why don’t you let the person purchasing the item decide if it’s real or not? No one if forcing anyone to bid on the auction.
September 24th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
I was an avid Ebay backer until the last year or so. I am sick and tired of them testing changes that hurt my business on Ebay and make it harder for me to find what I want. And they need to get an experienced collector to look at these listings they keep deleting because they don’t really understand what they are looking at.
September 24th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I’m pretty sure Sports Memorabilia is one of the top 5 or 10 eBay categories, so I’d like to think they could employ someone who is unbiased to monitor auctions.
Let’s all make the move to NAXCOM to sell…
September 27th, 2007 at 7:44 am
There is a great deal of fraud in the sports memorabilia industry. There are a number of people that sell “autographed” items on ebay who claim that they obtained the signature in person. Some show photos of the athlete signing the item. That is no guarantee that the item being sold is indeed the item in the photo. I am not suggesting that the Michael Jordan Autographed Card on eBay was a fake. I’ve never seen it. What I am suggesting is even though you know it’s real how do you expect others to? MJ autographs sell for a hefty sum. If you invest in 3rd party authentication by a reputable outfit such as James Spence that is well regarded by dealers and collectors alike, you will sell your item at a greater price. You will have more potential buyers interested in the item that will feel more at ease forking over their hard earned cash knowing that the item has been examined and deemed genuine by an “expert.” Sports Memorabilia has become a billion dollar industry. With that comes the pitfalls associated with greed. I suggest that everyone does their homework before parting with their money. Ask questions. Anyone who is hesitant to answer them is not worth your time or money. If you find an honest and legitimate dealer, then stick with them. Most Sports Memorabilia resellers will offer a discount to repeat customers. We want your business. Too often buyers want to collect but not pay what an item is worth. That is how you get ripped off. If it seems too good to be true. It probaly is. As far as eBay goes, there are so many crooks hawking their wares on that site. They probaly don’t have the time to research every listing and when in doubt they rather err on the side of caution and just pull any questionable items. I, however feel that they should have refunded the listing fees. To the Michael Jordan Autographed Card seller: There are numerous Sports Memorabilia auction houses that have in house authenticators that will consign your piece and issue an auction house authentication letter which then the buyer for a small fee can purchase an upgrade.
September 27th, 2007 at 8:46 am
Thanks for the long comment. I don’t disagree with anything that you are saying.
I myself have no idea whether it was real or not. I just think they guy should have a fair shot to sell it. eBay couldn’t have emailed him first? Erring on the side of caution might be good for their business, but they are going to hurt people selling legit stuff if they don’t treat each case as unique.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:46 am
I have recently run into difficulty with Ebay regarding a few boxing autographs I tried to sell; I wound up selling them to bidders who bid on them before Ebay ended them. The real problem is that Ebay’s authenticators also sell autographs. I use Frank Garo, www.fpgaro.com, whose companion site, www.arrowgrade.com, grades baseball cards. He assesses signatures for $15 if there is one on an item, and $10 each if there is more than one, with discounts available for a multitude of them. His highest grade is “PA,” for “Probably Authentic,” indicating what you’ve said, that no signature can be guaranteed 100%; the autographs I sell, mostly from the world of entertainment, are directly requested by my partner. Since she requests personalization, she often gets it, and still I am questioned regarding their authenticity. Well, if I got a COA, or even authenticated them with Mr. Garo, then I’d have to charge so much more, for autographs that don’t even have a high value to begin with. However, I understand why this happens — because there are a lot of crooks in this business. Doding them makes it difficult to continue, given that I only do this to supplement my income, which comes from many sources.
This isn’t the only place where I’m voicing my displeasure. I’m an Ebay stockholder, and I’ll be going on camera for an investigative news story for Channel 9 news for the New York area. I have nothing to hide; I’m simply in favor of policies that are more fair…. a thought I had recently was having three independent authenticators working for Ebay; if there’s a controversy, then have all three view the signature. The majority opinion would rule. It would be much better than the way they’re doing it now.
If anybody here would be interested in being part of the investigative piece — and part of it does relate to sports autographs — the E-mail to send to is investigations@wwortv.com. The producer running the piece on the sports autographs is Ed Lopez.
The only way to change things with a giant like Ebay will be to band together.
Michael Walters
Jersey City, NJ
October 17th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Michael,
What a great comment. You’re 100% dead on with everything you said in my opinion. We all know there are fraud problems, however the way eBay deals with them is far from fair. Sports cards/collectibles are a different animal than anything else they deal with and the answer isn’t to give power to authenticators or companies that have something to gain by closing auctions.
Adam
October 27th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Don’t we all know ebay is setup for scammers anyway’s , How stupid would a person have to be to trust an ebay seller?
October 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
I don’t want to paint a broad stroke and say that all eBay sellers are scammers, because I think the majority are honest sellers and that feedback helps weed out a lot of the ones who aren’t. That said, the ease of selling on eBay opens up the opportunity for scammers to thrive and that should make everyone a bit weary.
December 31st, 2008 at 1:00 am
There was a seller on ebay that had over 35 michael jordan autographs and said, they were signed in person or sent in the mail to be signed. This seller made $660 in one month just to find out that all the auto’s were fake!
If it’s not graded, don’t buy em’! The thing of it is as well, is that Upper Deck has been known for selling fake autographs. There was a card of Babe Ruth which was signed by Babe Ruth and only 5 had existed. This card was bought on ebay for over $100K, this same card ended up on CNN news because, Upper Deck got in trouble for making such a card and one of their ppl signing it claiming that the card was authentic when in fact it was a fake!
March 6th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Let me tell all of you something!!! Years ago back in the mid 90’s I had a guy walk into my shop with 10 ‘fake” Ruth signatures, man they all looked real to me, old paper and fountain pen signatures, how authentic, the guy even had a ball. He was a regular customer and had me put one in my shop. (I didn’t know at this point that they were fake) anyway, he would send scans to the now “Top’ authenticators and I mean ALL of the top authenticators and they ALL bought them, at the time he would get $300 a cut and I think he got around $700 for the baseball, he did this right in my shop, then about a week later after he sold all of them to these NOW top authenticators he brought in old paper and a fountain pen and showed me that it was him the whole time. My mouth actually dropped on the floor, he did Babe Ruth better than Babe Ruth. I’ll never forget him on the phone with JS (I’m only dropping initials) and they are going back and forth negotiating prices, It’s all BS, I look at it like this, if you collect, do your homework, be your own authenticator, It’s a crying shame that the hobby became this way but It is also ridiculous to have to spend money to get something authenticated. It’s true though, I get PSA or JSA to authenticate my items if I need to sell them…even with my above story, but as long as you have that stupid piece of paper your item is real even if it isn’t.
One more thing, I did a painting of Mickey Mantle when I was in high school, I had him sign it at a show in 1988, it cost my dad $15 in Brooklyn, not one authenticator deems it authentic, I’m not selling it anyway, but it goes to show that the biggest racket in this hobby is the infamous “Authenticator” Now that’s a scam to me
March 6th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
And another thing, bring back the days when we graded cards ourselves, it made it fun, this PSA graded garbage stopped me from buying cards all together. Just another stupid scam to jack up the prices of the dying card market. I want to touch and smell the old card, not look at it through plastic that if I open I’ve ruined it’s grade. This hobby stinks now. The card companies ruined every bit of it for the kids, remember this WAS a kids sport.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:17 am
How many collectors have quit collecting because of the grading taking centerstage over the card?Im considering quitting myself after 30 yrs of collecting.I have 1953 thru 1985 complete sets,that i used to enjoy,now all i think about, when i look at them, is what they grade,that is partly my fault though.Im just sick of PSAs superior attitude,if its not graded by PSA then its worthless.